Technology, Social Psychology, and Work-Life Balance with Ewandro Magalhães

Ewandro: Every Thursday, I prepare to die. Instead of waiting until a doctor tells you you have six months to live, I pretend I have heard that thing and I start enjoying my time now. Every Thursday, it is my personal time as if I were going to die. It creates that sense of urgency to go do the things that really matter. Spend time with your kid as he is growing up because he is not going to be 10 forever. And once that time is gone, there is no going back to that.

Brian: Today we are talking once again with Ewandro Magalhães. If you have not heard Episode 10, please go listen to that first. But today we are going to finish our conversation. I want to talk about three things: cultural experiences, social psychology and peer pressure, technology in language services, and work-life balance. Ewandro, welcome back.

Ewandro: Thank you for having me back.

Brian: Talk about some of those cultural experiences that have stuck with you.

Ewandro: Having been a linguist for 32 years, culture is the bread and butter of what we do. Whether you are translating a document, interpreting in the booth, travelling as an escort interpreter, or working for the UN surrounded by people of pretty much every nationality, culture becomes something you grow very used to accommodating.

Ewandro: The aspect that was most present in my experience was my relationship with the thousands of interpreters I managed during my time in Geneva. Coming from Brazil, the first time I left the country I was almost 30. When I went to Geneva and started working as the chief interpreter, you are suddenly in front of Chinese interpreters, Arabic interpreters, Russian interpreters, not just from Russia but those who defected, those who were away from China for a long time with a different output. There are conversations you can have with one group that you are not supposed to have with another depending on how political it gets.

Ewandro: You develop this fine skill of anticipating what the response is going to be depending on who you are talking to. I am that character who does not plan much and leans towards improvisation. But when talking to a French interpreter fresh out of Paris, I need to show a different persona to avoid creating unnecessary friction.

Brian: You mentioned peer pressure. Tell us more about the social psychology aspect.

Ewandro: When you are talking to an interpreter one-to-one, they show you a more collaborative persona. The same interpreter, when they are in a group, will behave differently because there is a lot of pressure from the group. Interpreters tend to refer one another and they rely on their peers to get work. Even when they are in front of a recruiter, which was basically what I was, they start to have second thoughts about where the loyalty really lies. When they are in a group, there is strong pressure to show the group that they side with them.

Ewandro: I made many mistakes going in. I would bring a hundred interpreters into a group, all sitting in a U-shaped table, and I would naively walk into that empty space and make a presentation and invite their feedback. They were mostly accommodating, but there is always a level of friction from the pressure that the collective imposes on the individual. In time, you start to juggle those elements better. It also brings out diplomatic skills you didn't know you had.

Brian: What happens when there are disagreements?

Ewandro: Disagreement is always there because schedules change, materials have not been provided, interpreters are under pressure to perform. I have walked in their shoes, so I would tend to react the same way. When disagreements show up, you just have to be transparent, give them a voice, let them roast you if that is what it takes. Openly say you messed up, or if somebody else dropped the ball, ask them to work with you on a solution. The level of stress can sometimes be very high, especially when starting a long conference with everyone away from home.

Ewandro: Different people react differently to stress. The mere fact that you take an interpreter away from Geneva to Dubai, the unfamiliar surroundings put them on a level of stress where they are yelling at the hotel reception desk. When you shake them out of that mode, they realise they are doing something they don't usually do.

Brian: The social psychology side is fascinating. Understanding what a person is going through, reading body language, much easier in person, harder remotely.

Ewandro: One thing that was a life changer was that before I became a recruiter and chief interpreter, I had been an interpreter for over 20 years. When I jumped to the other side of the fence, I started seeing behaviours that were very hard on me. But those were behaviours I used to show when I was freelancing. It taught me a lot about what freelancers should not do in order to have more work and create a more collaborative space. I put together a workshop called Seven Things a Chief Interpreter Wishes You Knew.

Ewandro: Example: I call you and ask if you are free on a certain day. Before telling me, the typical interpreter bombards me with questions. What is this about? Who am I working with? Will you pay per diem? Will materials be available? At the end, you say you are not available. Next time I need a French interpreter, I am not calling you first because it takes you too long to tell me if you are free. I am calling the straight shooter who says yes or no immediately.

Ewandro: Another example: if I send you a text asking about a job and you know you are busy that day, most interpreters will leave the phone, finish their meal, watch a movie, and respond the next day. But if they are free, they respond immediately. To me as a recruiter, I am calling you last because it takes you too long to get back to me.

Ewandro: Quality overall is a package. If you ask an interpreter what quality is, they talk about coping with speed, preparing well, being precise. But quality is also relating to your colleagues, showing up on time, getting the job done without creating friction, without creating more work for other people. Any chief interpreter would prefer to work with a good enough interpreter with a great attitude than with a perfect interpreter who has a poor attitude.

Brian: That is good advice. Make it simple, have a good attitude, and do a great job.

Ewandro: It is never intentional. They think they are being good corporate citizens asking all the right questions. What I teach them is: your first job is to say yes. Then after a few qualifying questions, if you don't think you are the right person, you can say so and recommend a colleague.

Brian: How is technology impacting the field of language services?

Ewandro: Every time a communication problem happened, the solution was technological. Language is the very first technology we came up with. We have the instinct to communicate, but we had to come up with a system of symbols and sounds. We are not like dogs. A dog barks the same way in Japan and Brazil. But humans can combine sounds in specific ways to form words and have conversations. Language is something we invented. Then we invented drums, smoke signs, the telegraph. Every time something new was created, the first reaction was to resist.

Ewandro: With remote interpretation, the basic response was, this is interesting, maybe someday. Nobody wanted to touch it. Then the pandemic hit and everybody was stranded. Remote interpretation became a lifeline. Even then, many established interpreters dragged their feet. But we would have been dead if the solution had not been tried.

Ewandro: Technology saved everybody. It gave interpreters a lifeline for two to three years. It also democratised access to language immensely. Interpreters in India who could never work anywhere because by the time they got on a train the event was over can now, from the comfort of their homes, service a meeting in Brazil.

Ewandro: The Titanic on its maiden voyage had the first wireless radio station by the Marconi Company, which could have warned the ship about the iceberg. Several ships tried to send messages. But there was a huge backlog of personal messages from passengers wanting to show off that they were aboard. At a certain point, the operator said, I am too busy, don't bother me, and closed one of the channels. It is about using technology for what it was conceived and thinking things through.

Brian: We got forced into adopting technology during the pandemic. Humans are still needed. Technology is a tool.

Ewandro: There is a great quote by Bill Wood: interpreters are never going to be replaced by technology, but they are going to be replaced by interpreters who use technology. This was at an Interpret America conference in 2010. People are playing with that quote now with AI. But you cannot do this without interpreters. At KUDO, the main researcher conducting AI experiments is an interpreter, researcher, and professor, Claudio Fontanaroli. It takes the mind of a human to get us there.

Ewandro: Remember typewriters? If you made a mistake on the last sentence of a full page, you had to type the whole thing again. Then word processors came and created a new profession, typists. With every new invention, a huge number of new professions is created. Who would have been a YouTuber 10 years ago?

Brian: Let us talk about work-life balance. What makes a good life? I am seeing people question where they are at after the pandemic.

Ewandro: Our attention is being pulled from left and right all day. Working from home, we end up working all day. The days when you hopped on a bus, read a book, did two hours of work, had a coffee break and lunch with colleagues, those are gone. You are home and there is a meeting at eight, another at 8.30, another at midnight because of time zones.

Ewandro: In the early days of KUDO when the pandemic hit, we were all working 16-hour days because we woke up to 900 emails and everybody needed a solution. You see the ringing of the cashier and think, let us capitalise on this. But then you burn out. And there is a huge cost that may not offset all the work and money.

Ewandro: If the pandemic taught me anything, it is that we need to disconnect. Take the plug off the wall at a certain time. But it takes discipline and an accommodating work environment. I see a lot of lip service paid to work-life balance. People have bowling nights and pizza parties and take pictures on boats over the weekend. The reality is that on Monday, you eat in front of your computer, no time for coffee, and it is work, work, work.

Ewandro: It starts with us setting limits, but also companies going beyond lip service to actually monitor hours and compensate with free time. Otherwise it costs you in burnout, depression, and your health. In the US, productivity is seen as a packed calendar of meetings. If all you do is work from 7am to 7pm and seldom see your kids, something is wrong. Nobody's tombstone says, I wish I had spent another day in the office.

Brian: I went through burnout personally at the beginning of 2020. It had been building for years. I work from home and have for 15 to 20 years. You are always working. I got addicted to the work and the adrenaline. Then frustration, anger, even depression. I realised I was exhausted. There are a lot of good things in life, but there is only time for a few right things. You have to start saying, it is good, but it is not right. It is good, but it is not the best. Putting up boundaries is hard. People will not always accept them. But when you say yes to the right things, you realise you only need to work six hours, not 16.

Ewandro: As long as you get to the expected result, it works. Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. That is a model for me these days. I am a creative type, a writer. What I hated most was progress reports. Show me where you are on that piece. Nothing, because it is all in my head. As I walk my kid to school, as I walk the dog, the whole thing is brewing. When I sit down to write it, it is going to be 15 minutes. I need to daydream. I need to call a friend. I need to go to the movies in the middle of my work time. Leave me alone. But I promise it will be on your desk when you need it.

Ewandro: I would invite listeners to look up Ricardo Semler. He is a Brazilian entrepreneur and visiting professor at MIT. His companies grow 24 to 25% year over year. In his company, there are hammocks. If you are tired, you can lie on a hammock for as long as you want. If you want to go to the movies, you don't have to ask permission. At the end of the day, they just want to make sure you are producing and not lagging.

Ewandro: He says, every Thursday I prepare to die. Instead of waiting until a doctor tells you you have six months, I pretend I have heard that and I start enjoying my time now. It creates urgency to do the things that really matter. Spend time with your kid because he is not going to be 10 forever. Once that time is gone, there is no going back.

Ewandro: In Brazil, when my kids were very young, I started working from home for the specific reason that I wanted to drive them home from school. It was a long drive. I wanted to be there. Did that make me miss out on a few opportunities? Probably. Do I regret it? Of course not.

Brian: I love everything you said. I have heard the same from the CEO of audiobooks.com who spent most of his work day daydreaming. That is how they got successful. True visionaries and creative types need that. As long as you get the work done, it does not matter if you go to a movie in the middle of the day. It is amazing how much work you can get done in a short time when you are rested, balanced, and focused.

Ewandro: I used to joke around KUDO and say, I work in my free time. I am supposed to live out there, have fun, come here and do productive, meaningful work. Without one, the other does not exist. As a leader with people working under me, I am very mindful of other people's time and the need to create the right environment for them to blossom.

Ewandro: When I went to Geneva, I moved to the outskirts where all I saw was cows, sheep, and vineyards. Eight minutes from Geneva on a train but completely bucolic. One convenience store for bread and milk. After 12.30, they closed for their meal and did not come back until 2.30. By 6.30, everything closes. In the beginning it was a nightmare because I came from Washington DC expecting 24/7 everything. But then I realised these people are in business enough to make a good living, but they don't tie their whole lives around it. I used to have two-hour lunches in Geneva with my colleagues. Here you have a sandwich in front of your computer. How productive is that really?

Brian: Tim Ferriss wrote about mini retirements in The 4-Hour Workweek. Instead of working yourself to death until retirement age, take sabbaticals and extended time throughout the year. People from my parents' generation got to retirement age and got dementia, died, didn't have enough money. Live now.

Ewandro: As Les Brown likes to say, life is short and unpredictable. Eat the dessert first.

Brian: Ewandro, thank you. I love chatting with you.

Ewandro: Likewise. I could be here all day.

Brian: Ewandro Magalhães, former United Nations. Thank you for joining us. Remember, always strive for authenticity and embrace the power of native experiences.